All Electric Jeep Recon

[6DoF]

"they don't make em like they used to" ... for me has nothing to do with lifespan and everything to do with simplicity and engineering based on functionality and repair, not cheap automated manufacturing.

i'm with Wrath on all that. i mean, i get pissed when i need a $100 "special tool" for a repair, now can you imagine having to buy that tool every time you had to fix it AGAIN ... PLUS with Tesla, the entire right to repair issue is voided!! they claim liability for the charging network. if you don't get repairs thru them for CRAZY money, you get locked out of the network and your car gets locked to low-current. it becomes useless for anything other then the grocery store. sure you can fix your toy yourself, but then you can't play with our toys. they have the ability to literally lock you out of all their gas stations, and only let you fill the car with an 1/8" straw from anyone else's. they will only charge at a stupid slow rate even in your own home with your own charger! "because their liability" you don't think everyone will jump on that ship with em?

the entire lease agreement process is based on the cars value after, that'll all collapse soon when ppl realize there is little to no value after too long. everyone will literally just rent cars from the OEM, no option to purchase, you don't own it so none of this matters. little guy gets fawked.

[xj_man_646]

Keep in mind, that in the case of the automobile, government regulations (between noise, emissions, safety) have drastically increased the required complexity, and with added complexity comes added costs, which are kept as low as possible. In order to produce the cheapest vehicle for the consumer, designs are largely there to aid more efficient manufacturing. I understand what you're saying but you can't have the benefits of new technology and creature comforts with the simplicity of yesteryear.

Keep Tesla out of the discussion; they aren't the norm. I don't think it will be long before the other OEMs surpass Tesla's EV reputation and market share. I have heard they've improved, but I was absolutely appalled at the quality of their 100k SUV.

[6DoF]

Originally Posted by xj_man_646

Keep in mind, that in the case of the automobile, government regulations (between noise, emissions, safety) have drastically increased the required complexity, and with added complexity comes added costs, which are kept as low as possible. In order to produce the cheapest vehicle for the consumer, designs are largely there to aid more efficient manufacturing. I understand what you're saying but you can't have the benefits of new technology and creature comforts with the simplicity of yesteryear.

Keep Tesla out of the discussion; they aren't the norm. I don't think it will be long before the other OEMs surpass Tesla's EV reputation and market share. I have heard they've improved, but I was absolutely appalled at the quality of their 100k SUV.

reason 8751 the .gov needs to gtfo!

and i don't disagree that tesla will get pushed out ... but they are setting a pretty high bar for BS that will be emulated

[xj_man_646]

Let's not forget customer demands . For whatever reason people seem to think a diesel truck needs to be whisper quiet.

I definitely can see subscription based services coming already...BMW with their heated seats and all that BS....sucks for sure.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

"they don't make em like they used to" ... for me has nothing to do with lifespan and everything to do with simplicity and engineering based on functionality and repair, not cheap automated manufacturing.

i'm with Wrath on all that. i mean, i get pissed when i need a $100 "special tool" for a repair, now can you imagine having to buy that tool every time you had to fix it AGAIN ... PLUS with Tesla, the entire right to repair issue is voided!! they claim liability for the charging network. if you don't get repairs thru them for CRAZY money, you get locked out of the network and your car gets locked to low-current. it becomes useless for anything other then the grocery store. sure you can fix your toy yourself, but then you can't play with our toys. they have the ability to literally lock you out of all their gas stations, and only let you fill the car with an 1/8" straw from anyone else's. they will only charge at a stupid slow rate even in your own home with your own charger! "because their liability" you don't think everyone will jump on that ship with em?

the entire lease agreement process is based on the cars value after, that'll all collapse soon when ppl realize there is little to no value after too long. everyone will literally just rent cars from the OEM, no option to purchase, you don't own it so none of this matters. little guy gets fawked.

I got back $15k from the 2018 Q7 Lease when I turned it in.
I expect we will be even in 2025 when we turn this one in.
Selling cars isn't going anywhere.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

reason 8751 the .gov needs to gtfo!

and i don't disagree that tesla will get pushed out ... but they are setting a pretty high bar for BS that will be emulated

Government mandates aren't what are making manufactures come up with tool specific repairs and subscription based heated seats.
Comparing a Honda CRV with an Audi Q3, shows the baseline sound requirements are negligible when another automaker can make a similar sized and equipped vehicle that much quitter for not that much more. The top of the line CRV is the same price as Q3, and feels thousands less.

[xj_man_646]

No, but the government is basically the only reason that dealership networks exist at this point.

[6DoF]

Originally Posted by Dennis

Government mandates aren't what are making manufactures come up with tool specific repairs and subscription based heated seats.
Comparing a Honda CRV with an Audi Q3, shows the baseline sound requirements are negligible when another automaker can make a similar sized and equipped vehicle that much quitter for not that much more. The top of the line CRV is the same price as Q3, and feels thousands less.

i'll agree with that for sure, the "consumer grade" vs "pro grade" vehicles are a wide gap. much wider than the costs.

if the market exists, we should be able to buy bare bones simple stuff with no traction control, no review camera's and screens, no CAN bus. stuff built to be serviced easily, quickly and cheap. the .gov mandates make that impossible. that market might also not exist, but it shouldn't be illegal.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

i'll agree with that for sure, the "consumer grade" vs "pro grade" vehicles are a wide gap. much wider than the costs.

if the market exists, we should be able to buy bare bones simple stuff with no traction control, no review camera's and screens, no CAN bus. stuff built to be serviced easily, quickly and cheap. the .gov mandates make that impossible. that market might also not exist, but it shouldn't be illegal.

You aren't getting rid of back up cameras and basic traction control. Too many kids have died in wrecks where those features would have easily avoided the deaths. The safety lobby is strong, still not as strong as the manufacturers, but strong enough to keep some things like that in place.

Isn't the CAN bus stuff there to make it easier/cheaper for the manufacturers, plus give them a semi-monopoly on repairs and upgrades? Is there not a way to separate emissions from traction control from my HVAC from my radio from my windows from my lights from my door locks from my heated seats?

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by xj_man_646

No, but the government is basically the only reason that dealership networks exist at this point.

Yeah the lobbyists at https://www.nada.org/ are too good and well funded at the state and federal level. But some changes have been made.