Repetitive Question.

[Amberfire122]

I know we have all be over this before but I want to know fully about a couple of things so I know what I am talking about. About IFS why exactly is that such a bad thing? I heard it sucks for lifts but only install? Not to mention the whole locker thing I am still confuse about that one too. What exactly do they do? Sorry for being stupid but like I said I just want to know exactly. If it(IFS) is so bad then Why did Dodge put them into the new RAM? Thanks for putting up with me.

PS Hey Nate I saw you in AZ again driving what looked like over to the Fiesta Bowl game today. graemlins/icon_beerchug.gif

[Ryan, aka: CheapXJ.com]

hmm...

read this. http://www.widowmakeronline.homestead.com/Liveaxle.html

then think about all the moving parts involved.

it really depends upon application. High speed on-road handling and ride quality are better with IFS. less unsprung weight means the suspension reacts quicker.

low speed off-road driving benefits from more unsprung weight, it makes the vehicle more stable in off-camber situations, the suspension also responds slower which gives the driver more time to react.

Generally, IFS 4wd systems use CV shafts like those used on front wheel drive cars. These are weak when used at high angles and they wear out faster. when these systems are lifted the angles get worse and only compound the problem. Not to mention that the arms (which are short to begin with, and probably already angled up) will transmit more vibration and shock directly to the chassis, negating two of the good points of IFS (better ride and handling)

Comparing stock vehicles, IFS can pretty much keep up with SAS, but SAS has much greater potential for articulation, and that is something that really all wheelers strive for. Not to mention that SAS is just plain stronger, simpler, easier and cheaper to maintain than its complicated IFS counterpart.

[Ryan, aka: CheapXJ.com]

there are some off road applications where IFS is superior, most brands of off road racing (baja, rally, etc) having the suspension able to react faster is crucial to remaining in control. solid axles really just suck for this application.

Neither IFS nor SAS are superior per se, they just have different applications.

[StingerdavTJ]

As far as lockers go, the point of a differential is to allow your wheels to turn at different speeds (when going in a circle, the outside wheel has to turn faster to keep up with the inside wheel which travels a shorter distance), so it is natural for a vehicle to send power to the wheel with the least amount of traction, this is just the nature of a differential. Lockers allow you to "lock" the differentials, forcing your wheels to turn at the same speed. You wouldn't want to turn with your diffs locked unless you want a bumpy ride, but if you are rock-crawling it is the only way to go imagine that you are trying to climb some serious boulders and your front right wheel is in the air and your back left wheel is in some sand. When you hit the gas, not only is your front right going to spin in the air, but your back left is going to spin in the sand and you aren't going anywhere. When you lock your diffs, the front left will be forced to turn as well as your back right and you will have a much greater chance of getting over the rocks. Sorry about the length and feel free to ask more if you need more info. :)

[SpyderXJ]

Cheap's, pretty much covered everything, and he beat us all to it :mad: icon_smile_wink.gif , but basically, SFS allow for more axel travel while IFS allows for "smoother" :rolleyes: on road travel. Take a look at these pictures. Same rig, same obstacle, different axels.

IFS
http://bigcherokee.com/pics/wifs.jpg

SFS
http://bigcherokee.com/pics/wsfa.jpg

[ January 04, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: SpyderXJ ]

[JEEPJERK]

A picture is worth a thousand words!! I just made that up!! graemlins/laughing.gif

[Amberfire122]

ok So the white Jeep, The IFS has only one wheel that will do all the work. However with the SAS both the wheels will be able to make the Jeep move. Ok got that one. Now with lockers, When you press the gas that the wheel spins it is sending all the power to that one wheel and the other wont go. IF you were locked up then the wheel wont spin and the two remaining wheels help to push the Jeep, right? I got it now. thanks.

What I dont get is why in the hell did Dodge put IFS in the new Ram?

[XJ junkie]

comfort and handleing

[JC]

Originally posted by Amberfire122:
ok So the white Jeep, The IFS has only one wheel that will do all the work. However with the SAS both the wheels will be able to make the Jeep move. Ok got that one. Now with lockers, When you press the gas that the wheel spins it is sending all the power to that one wheel and the other wont go. IF you were locked up then the wheel wont spin and the two remaining wheels help to push the Jeep, right? I got it now. thanks.

What I dont get is why in the hell did Dodge put IFS in the new Ram?THAT'S a TOYOTA not a JEEP!!! :eek:

On the locker thing. The end with the locker will make those two wheels turn together regardless of traction. You would need a locker in the front and in the back to make sure all 4 wheels turn together. The back won't affect the front and vv. Not sure if you were completely clear on that or not. HTH.

On the IFS thing.

"The IFS has only one wheel that will do all the work. However with the SAS both the wheels will be able to make the Jeep move. Ok got that one."

This isn't entirely true. IFS has nothing to do with whether or not a "wheel" will do "work" or not. It just doesn't flex as much as SAS. You can get more travel with SAS (in general) for much cheaper.

Now if you put a locker in an IFS "diff" then it would make both wheels turn (on the axle in question) regardless of traction, just like a locker in a SAS.
(I've seen a rock buggy w/ 1ton GM IFS diffs front and back, both locked, pretty sweet rig, all custom of course!)

Locking diffs in t-cases gets more tricky, and usually is Unimog level of stuff. I think the Selectrac tcase in XJs has some type of center "differential" of some sort. This allows differentiation between the front and rear drive shafts.

More confused, hope not?

[Static-XJ]

Originally posted by Amberfire122:
ok So the white Jeep, The IFS has only one wheel that will do all the work. However with the SAS both the wheels will be able to make the Jeep move. Ok got that one. Now with lockers, When you press the gas that the wheel spins it is sending all the power to that one wheel and the other wont go. IF you were locked up then the wheel wont spin and the two remaining wheels help to push the Jeep, right? I got it now. thanks.

What I dont get is why in the hell did Dodge put IFS in the new Ram?Yor're getting close.

First I think that a 4Runner pictured icon_smile_wink.gif . With IFS there isn't as much movement available (alt least the way all OEM setups work). So you'll lift a tire with greater ease. Having all 4 tires on the ground makes for more stability.

To understand a locker you need to first understand what a differential does. A diff sends the power to the path of least resistance. The reason this is needed in cars is so that you can turn (each side is traveling at a different speed around turns). So in the first picture all the power going to the front axle is going only to the tire that's in the air since it will be easier to spin. What a locker does is "lock" both sides of the axle to gether forcing each tire to spin at the same rate. WIth a front locker the toy in the IFS pic would still have traction while on that rock. Without a front locker, only the pass side tire will be spinning.
And what we call lockers, aren't locked 100% of the time. They lock under torque. So they will differentiate power (like an open diff) around turns (as long as you don't apply torque to the locker) but lock up with torque. These are automatic locking differentials. A spool has no differentiation and is fully locked 100% of the time. Welding the diff together (often called a Lincoln Locker after the welding company) permanently locks the diff toghether too.

Why does theRam have IFS? As I see it, two reasons. First IFS can ride better on paved roads and at high speeds. Second, to John Q. Citizen Independent Front Suspension sound fancy and high tech. Plus John will only be using his brand spanking new Ram for going to his downtown office, and for hauling the new baby crib home.

An IFS system could approach a solid axles preformance on the trail, but it woiuld be very complicated, fragile, and expensive. The solid axle front has proven itself many times over. It's durable (I'm talking about the suspension, not the axle) and simple enough that nearly anyone could work on it.

[Static-XJ]

Originally posted by JC97XJ:

Locking diffs in t-cases gets more tricky, and usually is Unimog level of stuff. I think the Selectrac tcase in XJs has some type of center "differential" of some sort. This allows differentiation between the front and rear drive shafts. THe reason you don't hear about a locking diff in a t-case is that most American t-cases don't have a differential in the t-case. The 231 (and 242 in pat time) spins front and rear driveshafts at the same speed. It's like an axle with a spool, they're locked 100% of the time. THe 242 in full time uses a differential to differentiate power between the front and rear driveshafts so that you don't get bind (from the front and rear traveling at different speeds when turning) on the road when in 4WD. A locking t-case basically has a switch or lever or cable (or whatever) instead of a different shift position. So shifting into 4WD in one of these puts the t-case into fulltime 4wd, and lockig the t-case puts it into part time 4wd.

[Amberfire122]

WHOA I guess I had better look a little harder next time at the picture I was only looking at the axles/suspension. God have I been an arse lately :rolleyes: icon_smile_wink.gif
No I think I understand it is one of those things that you have to see it to understand it like the picture. Once I saw it I immediatly got it. Plus the set up with the Jeep on the rocks with the two wheels off the ground. I understand the if not locked one wheel will spin faster than the other. However with a locker both will spin at the same speed. I got it. Yeah I guess you can teach morons anything it just takes time. graemlins/laughing.gif graemlins/icon_beerchug.gif

[Static-XJ]

Originally posted by Amberfire122:
I understand the if not locked one wheel will spin faster than the other. With one tire in the air and an open diff, it will be getting all the power. The tire on the ground gets none.

[FreeBirdXJ]

The pic of the 2 white Jeeps, should end the convorsation graemlins/laughing.gif

graemlins/icon_beerchug.gif

[XJ Fanatic]

free bird they are land cruisers

[FreeBirdXJ]

Oh Damn. :eek:

I'm going to go graemlins/icon_puke.gif now with stupidity, I didn't look at the rig only the flexing graemlins/icon_banghead.gif

Sorry.

graemlins/stupid.gif

[Steve]

Originally posted by Amberfire122:
...I understand the if not locked one wheel will spin faster than the other. However with a locker both will spin at the same speed...not *quite* right... its not that one tire will spin faster than the other (which is actually true in some situations... like when doing a powerbrake, burnout, or donuts or something).. its that one is getting all the power and the other one isnt.

I'll tell you why its different... let's say youre in dirt, at a standstill and you FLOOR it in a Jeep in 2WD and an open diff... both tires may spin but one may be spinning faster because it has more torque going to it--- as for those pictures of the LAND CRUISER (you guys its not a Jeep!!!) the tire on the rock won't be moving forward because that tire in the air will be spinning... so... in that case, its not that one is spinning faster is that one is spinning *period*... and the other ones not getting any power.

[Static-XJ]

Originally posted by Steve88XJ:
as for those pictures of the LAND CRUISER (you guys its not a Jeep!!!) I know this doesn't matter, but it looks like a 4Runner to me. The newer body style. Do 4Runners have rear coils?

[Amberfire122]

right when you are stuck you8 need the power to be equally distributed to each tire. When not locked only one tire will get the power.

Hey freebird were you implying that you are with me because of the "Im with stupid sign" ? graemlins/grinyes.gif graemlins/icon_beerchug.gif